Okay, I may regret this… (that should probably be a warning to me to stop now) but here’s a quote taken from a newsletter I got in the mail today. I’m NOT interested in blasting anyone nor am I interested in fighting, arguing, debating with readers whether homosexuality is a sin or not. Save that for a different blog please. But, I WOULD be interested in how you would lovingly respond, as a Christian, to this quote should the author have made it in your presence.
“I fully understand that a person who IS a homosexual (lesbian) or effeminate IS NOT a Christian no matter how passionate his or her claim.”
How might you respond? What questions would you want to ask? How might you challenge this thinking with Scripture?
It would seem to me that if you followed this quotation to its logical end, you would have to say that anyone who is a gossip, who is a cheat, who lusts, who is embittered, who struggles with any sin pattern is not a Christian.
The author also assumes effeminate means wrong. So, the guy who hates sports, doesn’t like beer, likes to garden, is quiet and introverted is living sinfully?
Musings on Faith and Psychology 
Just for fun, let’s substitute any other sin or “condition” and see how it flies:
a person who is an alcoholic is not a Christian…
a person who cheats on his spouse is not a Christian…
a person who lies is not a Christian…
Yup. Nobody left. We’ve just discovered that Christians are a figment of our imagination.
I think the bigger question is, “What does it mean to be a Christian?” Is a Christian someone who doesn’t struggle with sin anymore? Also, I want to ask him/her how she views the nature of sin. Good passage might be John 21, when Jesus reinstates Peter and asks him to take over the church. Read the rest of the NT and see how screwed up Peter is.
I think the issue is actually what is being pursued in the midst of the struggle: justification of the sin or mortification of the flesh. If the latter, welcome to the wonderful world of following hard after Christ. If the former…better check your spiritual pulse.
As to the man who made the comment (I’ll assume it’s a man, ‘wink’), methinks he’s whitewashing something…so I’d ‘lovingly’ respond, “That’s not a struggle I’ve had, but there are MANY other sins I am joining Christ to crucify in my life. What would you say YOUR biggest struggles are?”
listen here the bible sayz if u luv me youll keep my commands so their r 2 many people becoming homesexual than running 2 religion that wont save u the bible tells uz you well reap wut uso so if your homo you will set eternity in hell i dont care how christian you are if you dont repent your going 2 hell in repent means to ask for forgiveness in turn away.
Sorry Mark doesn’t get the last word here, particularly because it does not represent a Christian viewpoint. But his comment was so obviously hateful I won’t give it any more attention than I just have. First, the obvious response to homosexuals is LOVE. Treat them as better than yourself. I think the harder response is not for the individual Christian but for the church as a body. The individual Christian is called to love even our enemies. But the church has the hard part in front of them in terms of deciding whether or not: to let a (practicing) homosexual be a pastor, to let a homosexual be a member, to let a homosexual couple be married in the church, and whether to confront the homosexual on their actions. I simply can’t answer these questions.
Of course, I believe that a person who is celibate and claims to be a homosexual is not living in sin. I am also aware that homosexuals often have theological and exegetical arguments that homosexuality is not a sin. I guess these points don’t really address the question you asked about how we should respond to such a statement. I guess my view is not to reply to those comments at all but to merely express your own beliefs apart from arguing against clearly wrong teaching. It usually doesn’t help to get into an argument. Peace.
Tell me how you came to understand this?
You seem to know this to be true. I wonder what is so important about this belief that you needed me to know it?
Folks, in this post I’m not undertaking here a debate on the issue of homosexuality but on the issue of whether we can write off a population as nonChristian because of the nature of their struggle. Personally I believe the Scriptures are clear that homosexual activity is not God’s design. Romans 1 is very clear. You have to do tremendous exegetical gymnastics to make it something good. I’m not sure longstanding identities with weaknesses (whether Alcoholic or homosexual) is a good thing for a Christian, but I do hope that we will be a community that is honest in our struggles and doesn’t create sin caste systems.
Check out HarvestUSA (on my blogroll) for good helps or Mark Yarhouse’s work for an ethical clinical option. However, as Curtis says, the church hasn’t done well in dealing with this problem. Love the sinner, hate the sin sounds good on paper but it often translates to judge the sinner as worse than others. Respect for folks who struggle with any issue is a MUST. Notice how Jesus responds to sinners. I’ve written privately to Mark to inform him of the kind of tone and demeanor I require on this blog.
Martha, not sure what your comment is about but if you’d like to elaborate your question that would be fine. Just be sure to be civil as you ask your question. We all know the tone we intend but the reader likely does not so please be more careful to let the reader know where you are coming from.
My apologies for not being clearer. The question initially was “how would you lovingly respond, as a Christian, to someone who made this comment…” From the perspective of a therapist talking with a client, the questions I posted above are ones I would gently ask the client. Just seemed such a vehement comment, filled with more than the words were saying.
Thanks Martha for your clarification–and great questions by the way. This is a great example for us all to consider of how context changes everything. In my first reading of your post (in light of Mark’s and Curtis’ posts) I thought you were speaking to them so I “heard” agitation in your voice. Now with your clarification I “hear” some very gentle questions that should encourage the counselee to consider what was behind his/her strong opinions. A good lesson for me to remember to back up and not assume I already know the context. Thanks for your additions here.
Context example # 2. A friend pointed out to me that in my post yesterday I made reference to two different people named Mark. So, to clarify, Mark Yarhouse has some really good tools to help clients struggling with same sex attraction. Mark, the person who posted on my blog a few days ago, got the private email I mentioned.
I wish all sinners could be christians, but unless you ask for forgivness and try to sin no more, amd accept Jesus as your Savior, can you be a Christian. Those that actually enjoys their sin, cannot, will not. ever be a christian. It’s like what Kieth Green said in an interview, “just because you go to church, that doesn’t make you a christian just like going to McDonalds doesn’t make you a big mac”. You cannot be a christian and be a practising sinnwe.
well, you opened a huge can of worms here, phil! i agree with robyn, your first response. but the quesiton i have has been alluded to by rick… where is the line between ‘i’m a christian, and i sin and i struggle’ and ‘i’m practicing sin and i’m not a christian’?
we are all practicing sinners, as we all sin. however, it also says (oh rats..where is it?) that those who practice sin will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
are practicing homosexuals/alcoholics/drug users/too much coffee drinkers real christians? we can’t know somoene’s heart, yet…
ok phil, have a go at that?! 🙂
judi
I wonder if we can know this side of heaven. Where is the line? Do we see true repentance and faith? I believe that when I excuse sin even when confronted by the Word the “wounds of a friend” I move into a delusional situation. I need rescue. Will I find it? One won’t know until the end…
I do not believe that quote is right. Homosexuality is a struggle for many people out there, and great christians that none of you even know of. I am almost positive that you know a christian, who has homosexual feelings, but hasn’t told anyone. I strongly believe that having homosexual feelings is not a sin, but the moment you act on them it is sinning. Why would God create people with something that would destine them to hell? We are too busy justifying everybody else’s sins and not even paying attention to our own sins. It’s God’s judgement, not ours.
Marie, I agree with your primary sentiment. We ought to spend more time picking the log out of our own eye. I will, however, disagree with you on one thing. The Lord does allow people to struggle with all sorts of issues. We are sinners because we are born, therefore our feelings, thoughts, etc. may not be pure. That is something we do have to evaluate. Every thought is taken captive for Christ. Feelings of homosexuality may or may not be sin (depends on what we do with them) but they are signs of brokenness.
While the Bible does say we will struggle with sin until we see Christ face to face, it also says those who practice sin do not know Him. Struggling with homosexuality and giving in to it are two different things. One we are tempted, we sin, we struggle, then repent and maybe several times. The other we do not struggle, we just give ourselves over to the lusts of the flesh. In this case, a person would not have really been born of the Spirit if this same Spirit were not convicting him or her of sin and working in the believers’ife to bring about repentance. I would say that would be true of any sin that a person lives as a life-style and does not struggle with but gives themself over to.
Becky, thanks for your post. I agree with you in principle. I suspect, though, we have all gone through periods, however short/long, where we didn’t struggle with______ (fill in the blank). I have had friends who for a period of time denied that their adulterous actions or bitterness/rage/jealousy was sinful. But they had no peace and at a point came back to the Lord in confession and repentance. There are times in the OT we see that God gave the people of Israel over for a period of time to their lusts. It is true that if we have been born of the Spirit, we will not give ourselves over to the lusts of the flesh. Guess I’m not sure I have a handle on how long one gives oneself over and whether that means they are of Christ. What I do think we have to do is be gracious, encouraging, rebuking, and remembering that we too are in need of gentle restoration.
Thanks again for your thoughtfulness here.
Hi Phil,
Great Blog. Lots of work eh? I see our generation is still trying to overcome the faults of our parents generation which seem to be centered around not talking about things. Myparents would have a fit about any discussion about homosexuality that did not stop at “they are sinners and going to hell lets pray for them”. But anyway I would like to talk to you and your wife a bit more on adoption. Millay and I are thinking of adopting and the idea of adopting an african american came up. We hear the need is great in this demograph. We want to be sure that the child we adopt is in need of parents. We would like to get both your opinions on the problems of this kind of adoption. No need to post this on your blog. Jeff
My initial response to this question was to remember what Jesus did in a similar situation. As you remember, a group of men brought a woman before Jesus. They proclaimed her a sinner (welcome to the club, sister!), calling her a “sinful woman” because she had been caught in adultery — “in the very act.” (Talk about a bad day…) They were demanding that she be stoned to death, and I have the impression that their tunics were already overflowing with stones. They were ready.
You know the story. Jesus took a deep breath and said… NOTHING. He stooped down and wrote in the sand. And then (how can we not be in awe of this?), in a stunning economy of words, He invited the men to examine their own hearts. “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.” In relatively short order, only a ring of abandoned stone heaps remained. Jesus was left alone with the woman and had the opportunity to minister to her.
I would suggest that one possible Christian response to the quote above and to its author would be a period of silence. At least initially. We can find our own version of “writing in the sand.” It may be, in fact, doodling, or something such as looking out a window, counting to ten, or silently entreating, “Lord, help! Yeah, I know… Again!”
I would also suggest that there is an extra step required of us. Jesus did not need to examine his own heart. He knew what He would find there. Perfection. Purity. Sinlessness. No guile. We, on the other hand… Well, I’ll leave you to fill in the blank.
After this period of silence and self-examination, there is probably about a .03% chance that we can actually respond to the speaker in selfless love and with a heart that is for his good. It’s a long shot, but I’m inclined to say, “Go ahead. Throw up the Hail Mary pass.”
I think that a person who is, or claims to be homosexual, can be a christian just as a person who has a problem with alcohol can be. But drunkenness is a problem, fornication is a problem, and homosexual sexual behavior is a problem if one is to live as God has commanded. He clearly tells us in the bible that sex belongs in marriage and marriage is one man and one woman for life…so that excludes all other sexual behavior.
Of course we all struggle with sin in general and some sins are harder of a struggle for us than other sins are as Scripture makes plain in 1st Corinthians 10:13 when it says “No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.” So for a Christian to struggle with homosexual temptations is one thing but when the person is not even bothering to struggle at all or resist then I might wonder whether the person’s claim of following Jesus Christ is genuine or just empty talk as many will say to Jesus ‘Lord, Lord..’ but not enter the kingdom. Still, whatever our personal struggles with whatever sin issue we struggle with, we must daily do what Jesus told us to do in Luke 9:23 “And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.”
Judi said: “we all sin. however, it also says (oh rats..where is it?) that those who practice sin will not enter the kingdom of heaven.”
I think 1 Cor 6:9-11 is what you’re thinking of, judi.
“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
What a beautiful word: “were”! Christians can be ex-homosexuals, just as they can be ex-thieves. But just because you don’t do it any more, that doesn’t necessarily mean the temptation is forever gone. If someone stumbles (James 3:2) into a relapse, that’s different to rejecting God and choosing to live in sin. He/she needs loving help to get back on his/her feet (Gal 6:1). So if God says someone’s a homosexual when they wilfully practice it, not merely when they are tempted to, that indicates that his answer to the topic question is no, you can’t be…but you CAN change!
I guess where this leads us is the question of what does it mean for a homosexual to repent and believe. I think that may differ, just as it does for people dominated by other sins.
Some may be ‘healed’ enough to be attracted to a person of the opposite sex, and marry. But we should not expect, must less demand this before we say that person is a Christian.
Most will probably struggle with same sex attraction all their lives. I don’t think this makes them any less of a Christian than anyone else. Their justification is in Christ, yet they have a remnant of sin dwelling in them like the rest of us.
For most of us- some sins end almost immediately at conversion, some are put to death in sanctification over time, and some will be a continual source of temptation until we die.
They should be committed to celibacy. They need brothers and sisters to stand by them as they seek to know Christ, and live obediently, offering grace where there is sin.
Nice thoughts Cavman. Good summary.